Clifton Corbin left his business consultant gig after 2 decades of experience to become a full-time stay-at-home dad. He is the author of "Your Kids, Their Money: A Parent's Guide To Raising Financially Literate Children," which provides parents with the skills and tools to teach financial literacy to kids. He also wrote "The Richest Person In Babylon", which is the popular favorite "The Richest Man In Babylon" revised for modern time. When not reading or listening to podcasts about finance and economics, Clifton can be seen fixing up his 100+ year old home in Toronto, playing basketball with his kids, chairing a PTA meeting or DJing in his basement.
In this episode, you will be able to:
The key moments in this episode are:
00:00:00 - Introduction to Financial Literacy
00:03:17 - Importance of Financial Literacy Conversations
00:07:10 - Encouraging Kids to Invest
00:10:33 - Financial Literacy by Age
00:11:59 - Teaching Children About Money
00:13:02 - Starting Money Conversations Early
00:15:35 - Abundance Mindset vs. Scarcity Mindset
00:17:56 - Visualizing Wealth Growth
00:22:43 - Helping Next Generation Avoid Financial Struggles
00:27:39 - Building Strong Relationships
00:28:37 - Real Estate Agent Tribe
00:29:32 - Free Resources for Kids
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Then when I was out on my own, I ended up making a mess of my finances. So I realized one of the things that I needed to do was help other parents help their kids avoid some of those financial traps that we sometimes find ourselves into. This is the reason why I've written the books and I'm creating more resources and why I'm really trying to advocate for more financial literacy. Conversations between parents and kids.
Welcome to the REL Freedom show, where we inspire you to pursue your passion to gain time and financial freedom through opportunities in real estate. I'm your host, Mike Swenson. Let's get some REL Freedom together. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of REL Freedom. Real estate leveraged freedom, talking about building time and financial freedom through opportunities in real estate. And one of the most important pieces of building financial freedom is having a great understanding of money, both for yourself and for kids. If you have your own kids, or maybe you have nieces and nephews or friends or relatives who have kids, how do we talk about money? What are some of the principles that we want to focus on ourselves? But then how do we have those conversations with kids? And so, a little bit of a different episode today, but I'm so focused on having good foundational principles as a part of the podcast and what we're talking about. And so today we've got. Clifton Corbin was a business consultant and now is the author of the book your kids, their money, a parent's guide to raising financially literate children, which came out a couple of years ago. And then another really cool one, the richest person in Babylon, kind of an updated take on the richest man in Babylon, which I know is a very, very popular book. A lot of people love it. Very foundational type book. And so you revise that for the modern times. And so we're going to talk about money, we're going to talk about kids, how to merge that together and everything and anything in between. So, Clifton, we're so excited to have you on the show.
Thank you so much, Mike. I'm looking forward to this.
So talk a little bit about your background, what you did before you took this on full time, and we'll dig in after that.
Sure. So, like you mentioned, I was a business consultant, the corporate world. And then when my son, my oldest, he was now twelve, was about to start elementary school, I took a pause. I basically left my job and decided to be a stay at home parent. We joked, my wife and I, we always knew we wanted one parent to be home. So we joked about how it's kind of a race to the bottom where whoever's making the lease is the one who gets to stay home. But we kind of always knew it was going to be me. I'm more the entrepreneur in the family, so we knew I was probably going the one who stayed home. So been home for the last ten years, give or take. But in the back of my mind, I always knew once the kids started to be a little bit more self sufficient, advocating for more financial literacy was going to be something that I wanted to do and wanted to take on. So that's part of the reason for the book. The other part is just my history. So when I was younger, I had parents who talked about money. We got into earning, go to school, get a good job. But then when I was out on my own, I ended up making a mess of my finances. So I realized one of the things that I needed to do was help other parents, help their kids avoid some of those financial traps that we sometimes find ourselves into. This is the reason why I've written the books and I'm creating more resources and why I'm really trying to advocate for more financial literacy conversations between parents and kids.
My quick backstory is I majored in business and entrepreneurship, and I didn't realize at the time the importance of my upbringing and how really it probably took ten or 15 years to kind of change my wiring because I was raised, get a good job, contribute to your 401, get your health insurance benefits, do that all the way to retirement, and you should be fine. And so that was everything that I was taught. And then when I went to school, I majored in entrepreneurship more because I wanted to learn about kind of business. I thought it would give me a good, well rounded aspect of business. I had zero desire to start my own company or to do something entrepreneurial right out of college. And for me, that didn't happen until 1517 years after college. But I realized it's taken so much to rewire my brain and think differently about how I approach finances because of how I was raised. And the interesting thing is, my parents taught me safe, stable, good job. And for both of them, what ended up happening is they kind of were forced into an early retirement by their employers because they could hire somebody for cheaper that knew what to do earlier on and save some money. And so for them fortunate enough, they were at the spot where they were able to retire, but it wasn't on their own terms. And so trying to change those habits, and then as we think about our kids, yeah, what are the lessons we want to teach them, they ask the questions, how much money do you make? They know that sell houses. And so how does that work? And so being able to do that in a good way. So curious to know your thoughts, what shaped your thoughts about money, either for good or for bad, and maybe things that you had to rewire as you're continuing on this journey, thinking about teaching your kids and other kids.
That's a great question. So one of the things, like I mentioned briefly, is I had that mindset of go to school, get a good job, and you're all set. And I was very money curious as a youngster. So even when I was living at home as a teenager and even younger, I had those early jobs. I was making my own money, and I was fairly good at saving it as well. The challenge came in that no one ever spoke to me about wealth and wealth creation and the value of wealth creation and what could come from having more wealth that you've secured financial independence specifically. So we never got into those conversations, and we didn't talk about the other parts of financial literacy, whether that be debt, managing debt, leveraging debt. We didn't talk about insurance, we didn't talk about anything. It was really just get a job, go to school, or go to school, get a job, save some money, and that was it. But that's not enough. There's just not enough content there for you to actually launch successfully into adulthood and be able to budget, be able to invest, be able to start down that wealth journey to make sure that when you're in your senior years, you're not being forced into early retirement or that you're financially set, if that is the case. Right. We need to make sure that these conversations are happening a lot earlier than they currently are. A lot of times they're not happening at all. So what I've been trying to encourage more parents to do is have some of these conversations. Like you said, you're an entrepreneur, you're an investor, you've got opportunities there that you can bring your three boys into and say, hey, look, this is what I'm doing. You don't have to do it this way, but this is what I'm doing. And this is why I'm doing it this way. Because I want to grow a nice nest egg here so that we could be financially set during this time, so I can make sure all your needs are met. And I'm also doing it so that I can be financially set later in life so I don't have to keep doing this if I don't want to. So that's the idea, is that we want to make sure that, that we are moving financially forward so that we are always getting our kids prepared, so we want to bring them into those conversations so that they understand, well, what is wealth and why do I need to focus on wealth and why should I be saving? Because, again, saving is great. I'm not trying to put down saving, but we want to make sure they understand that the idea is that you're not just saving to have a little extra. You're saving with the intent of growing that savings, growing that wealth, and then eventually finding that place of financial security, financial independence, and feeling financially well. Yeah.
A couple of thoughts. One, you were talking about insurance, health insurance, having kids. That was a big surprise for me. I remember when we went to have our first child, and at that point, I was working a job, and the insurance, a lot of it was covered by the employer. But I remember thinking like, holy cow, that was not what I was ready for. And then when I chose to go off on my own and had to find my own health insurance, that's another struggle. And so, to your point. Yeah, we never talked about that growing up. I wasn't prepared for that. I will say I probably had a little bit more formal education than most in school because I know a lot of people say they don't talk about it at all. I did take one trimester. We had a money management class. So we talked a little bit about money. We talked a little bit about investing the rule of 72 and interest rates and how that works. But I also thought if we save up our money, what we should do is probably do like a CD, because then it's safe. Right. And I can earn some interest on that. Not even realizing, holy cow, that's not even going to keep pace with inflation. So it was a little bit of a flawed class that I took, but at least I had something. But to most people's point, that stuff's not even covered. The stuff's not going to really matter in people's lives and really prepare them for the future. It's not talked about.
No. And you're right. And that's where I'm going with this. Your audience, obviously, they're very focused on investing, specifically with real estate. This is an opportunity to bring your kids into what it is to invest. Right. We want our kids to understand that investing is something that they need to be focused on, because we do need to, especially these days. We need to not just keep up with inflation. We need to outpace inflation to make sure that the money that we have is growing to meet our needs and future needs. We have these opportunities when they're home, when they're young, when they still listen to us. Those opportunities dwindle as they get older and they become more financially responsible for their own money. So one of the things I try to encourage parents to do whenever possible is to try to not just bring them into the conversation, but also give them opportunities, right? So if you can give them access to an allowance, if you can help them have their first job, if you can help them buy their first stock, their first bond, if you can help them help you manage your first door, if they're actually there, seeing what it takes, what are the expenses to actually manage a rental unit, whether that be short term, long term, what have you. If they actually see what this means and they can see, okay, so I've got cash flow here, I've got appreciation here, I've got leverage here. And in addition to that, I'm dealing with all of these different risks. I'm dealing with these different expenses. If they can actually start to see how it all works, then when it's time for them to manage their own money, there are leaps and bounds ahead of most folks who don't even get those courses, whether they're flawed or not. But like I said, they're more ready to. You're setting them up for success. You're setting them up to actually be financially secure, which is what we all want, right? We want our kids to be better off than we were. And if we're on a path, on a journey of wealth creation, then how can we help our kids start that journey even earlier? We all know that the only thing that's really valuable is our time. And how much more can our kids get if they actually maximize that time? By understanding the value of wealth, the importance of investing, how to save and budget it, and all these other pieces of financial literacy. So by focusing on your kids and bringing them into the conversation and bring them into your investment journey and bring them into your budgeting discussions, by doing all of that, you're really helping your kids, like I said, set them up. Helping your kids to be set up for success.
What do you think in terms of some of those concepts as it relates to their age? I have a six year old. It sounds like we both have nine and twelve year olds. Thinking through, at what stage does it make sense to kind of go a little bit deeper? We've had the conversations with our kids about just because we don't buy something doesn't mean we don't have the money. I remember that was a thing that I learned growing up when my parents would say, well, we don't have the money for that. What I learned was that they're choosing not to spend the money on that. Because I remember thinking like, oh my gosh, if I want this toy, does that mean we're not going to be able to eat? And fortunately, I lived in a household. It was very middle class. We didn't have a lot of things, but fortunately we had shelter, we had food. And while we didn't have a lot above that, we at least were able to meet those needs. But I remember asking, it was my dad that would say, we're not going to buy that. I remember asking my mom, are we okay financially? And then I just came home this last weekend to my parents and they were very diligent about, they had a budget book and they would write down all their expenses. Well, I was surprised. I came home, it was my mom's birthday. And so we celebrated with the family. We went to go eat and my dad is now 75 years old, pulls out his budget book and writes down his food expense. We were going to go out to dinner, there was a church fundraiser, pulls out his budget book, writes down $30 in his book. And that is what they did teach me, though, is being diligent about tracking it, but didn't have this concept of I choose not to afford something, versus does that not mean we don't have enough money?
No, it's something that I bring up in my book as well. It's being very intentional with what we say to our kids. Right? Like you said, I have a twelve and a nine year old. They're a little bit older now. But I remember those early days. You're in the store, you're frantic, you're trying to check out, they're asking for a candy or they're asking for a toy. And our natural tendency is just to try to kind of get away from that moment as quick as possible. So we'll say things like, oh, we don't have money for that, or we can't afford that, or whatever the quick out is. But like you said and you rightfully identified it, like the messaging that you're receiving or the message the child is receiving is either, I'm not valuable because I can see that there's money for all these other things, but there's no money for me. What is the messaging you're giving when you say these things? So it's necessary that we be very intentional. Now, your original question was asking about what's the right age for all of these different discussions. And there's no right or wrong age. It really does depend on your child. So I'll give an example. In my life, my son, he's very similar to me, he's very money curious at a very early age. So we started these discussions when he was, let's say, four, and I tried to give him an allowance at four years old. He just wasn't able to keep up with the math. It didn't make sense. So instead of doing an allowance, we just had more conversations. I'd bring him to the grocery store, we'd talk about budgeting instead of saying we can't afford it, I would try to explain, like we have money set aside for these things in our lives. In other words, we've budgeted for these things that isn't in our budget right now. We haven't prioritized that right now. But for your birthday or for Christmas or for these other times, we will set aside money for that.
Again, in the moment, you're not able to say that to a child who's throwing a fit trying to get a piece of candy. But if you have these conversations early and often, your child will understand. So we did eventually get to the allowance, and now my son, he's investing on his own. Well, not on his own, he's doing it via me. But he's now at a point at twelve where we're having conversations about investing. My hope is that in the next couple of years from now, rather than me setting aside money for back to school, his toiletries, his clothing, I'm going to give that money to him. He is going to manage that just like you would manage a budget if he was out on his own, because in a couple of years from then, he will be out on his own. And I don't want the first time he's managing a budget to be when he's on his own. So you really have to gauge where your child is and their abilities, but the ideal is that you're giving it to them while they're home with you and you can be there to coach them, because at some point they're going to be hopefully moving out, moving on, doing their own thing, and at that point they just don't have you as a resource the way they would at these early stages. And remember, 1718, there's not much difference there in ability from 1920, right? Access to capital is probably very different but actual ability to manage the money is not very different. So if we can give them access to what the money? Again, it's not new money. We don't have to go out and find money for these things. We were going to buy them clothes. We were going to pay for their food. So let's give it to them and let them manage it so that when they do hit 19, 2021, it's not the first time. They're not like, I don't know how to make this work because they've been doing it. They've been figuring out how, they've had opportunities to figure out how to manage with limited resources. And all the while, you're also explaining what to do with any surpluses they may have.
That was going to be kind of my next question, talking about or just mindset around money, an abundance mindset versus a scarcity mindset. Because I remember thinking, my first job, I made 535 an hour. And it's like, okay, I work 10 hours, I make $50, and then it's like, you had to work with, okay, how do I plan for what the $50 is? Versus having a mindset of thinking like, oh, I could actually multiply this. If I do invest it. Not in cds, cds, I make a little money, but I'm thinking teaching them about that multiplication of money, building and growing businesses and focusing on assets that are really going to move the needle versus just working and making money. And that's it. But finding different ways to kind of create money and multiply that well, right.
And it's a bit of a balancing act, right. Because we don't want them to have a scarcity mindset, but at the same time, we do need them to operate understanding that money is a scarce resource. We only have so much access to money, and if we max out the amount we use by buying everything and not saving anything and not having an opportunity to even invest any of it, then we're losing an opportunity. Right. There's an opportunity cost to that. So on the other side of it, we do want them to see that, hey, if you are doing these things, if you're investing, if you're buying real estate, if you're going to the stock market or what have you, you're starting your own business, there is that multiplier effect. So this is why I want you to bring your kids into any of your investment discussions, if you can, especially once it's age appropriate, because they need to see what's happened. So if I were to show my kids my portfolio, I'm able to say, hey, look, this is how much I put in, but this is how much it's worth. This is very different. So for my kids, what I will do is periodically, not all the time, I'll show them how much I've saved for their college education. Right? And it's a great example of this. It's like, this is how much money I put in. I only put this much in, but this is how much it's worth. And there's a big gap between the two. And the reason there's a big gap is because we're getting dividends. Things are appreciating. I'm not taking any of it out. I'm reinvesting everything. And it keeps growing. And in a couple of years from now, it will probably be here and I can show them, okay, last time we looked at it, where was it? And I'm still contributing. So it's a tangible, and it's also theirs. So it's a tangible example of how money can grow if you just set it aside, leave it, or you put it into something and you contribute to it regularly. Right. So as you know, there's multiple different investing strategies. This is just one. But I could show them this one, because again, the money that's there is theirs. So they are even more invested, if I can use that word, are more invested in the outcome of that money, because again, it's set aside for their college education. So they're like, well, how much do I have now? And I've done this. It's not only with my kids that I've done this for. I've done this for my nieces and nephews as well. Right? I've started up 529s for all my nieces and nephews. Same idea I didn't like. So this started years ago. Christmas Day would come and there'd be a melee of toys and things, and no one knows who got what or who gave what. And it was like, I was like, this doesn't make sense. This isn't adding true value to what I think we could be contributing to these children. So we started off with 529. So I was like, instead of birthday gifts, instead of Christmas gifts, let's contribute to the 529. And then on those special days, maybe once or twice a year, let's give them a statement. And then when they hit 1819 and they're ready to go off to college, then you get this windfall, which I think is just a better way. Again, I only have so much access to my nieces and nephews they don't live with me like my own kids, but this was the way that I was able to influence them or try to influence them to say, okay, this is how, again, you can make wealth grow, by having an investment strategy and actually showing them, again, this is your money, not mine. And this is how you can see how wealth can grow. And again, it's a balance, because, again, you need to be able to operate under that idea that our resources are scarce, but it has the opportunity to grow.
You're going to start the viral trend of Christmas morning. We all run downstairs and check our five twenty nine s. Oh, man, that.
Would make me so happy. If that was the movement I started, Mike, I can't tell you how happy I'd be.
Here we go. Clifton Corbin. Today we're naming it the 529s. Run down under the tree. That's what's going to happen.
Yeah. Checking portfolios, that's all I want.
Well, and for me, I remember talking about multiplying money. I remember when I first started contributing to our 401K plan for work. I'm a spreadsheet guy. And so I was like, okay, well, if I contribute this much, every paycheck, and I look and I fast forward to 40, 50, 60 years old, and if I increase my contribution, I just had, like, a little set of assumptions where it's like, okay, well, if it earned this amount or if I increased my contributions by this amount, I would fast forward and I had it set up where each year was each age, and I would kind of see how it would grow. And it was cool to see my mind hadn't been opened up to see those things, because, like I said, I just had this. Here's what you make, and you have your budget, but to see how it could actually grow was very eye opening.
That's great. And I'm a spreadsheet guy, too, so I could definitely relate to that. And I think that there's something to that as well. So a good friend of mine, Maya Corbeck, she just released a book. I think it's called piggy banks to stocks. And it's an investment book for kids. Like, it's meant for adolescent, young teens. And I gave my copy to my son. I was like, hey, take a look at this. And one of the things he really identified with really quickly, it resonated with him really quickly, was the visuals. He was able to see, okay, here, if I do this, go out and buy an ipod or iPhone or what have you, at the end of the day, I have nothing. But if I go out and I buy some stocks of apple, at the end of the day, I have this much money. So having the visuals there, I think especially for kids, it really does help. So they can see, hey, this is what I'm talking about. It's not just theoretical. There's actual tangible results that can come from you being focused on your wealth at a very early age. I know some folks who are like, there's kids who are. When I say kids like early 20s, that are already trying to reach Phi, like financial independence and retiring early, and that's in their 20s, right? It's possible. But you do need to focus on this. You do need to be somewhat educated on what does it mean to manage your money in a responsible way? How do you actually make sure that you're not maxing out all your resources? How are you making sure that you're actually using that surplus to build wealth? And what are you doing to make sure that you're securing that wealth? Now, that's not the whole financial picture. I'm also huge on donating and philanthropy. There's more to the puzzle than just earning and saving and investing. But we need to be having these discussions with our kids, because if we don't, they won't get it. Or when they do, it could be after. It could be like my situation where I made a mess of my finances in my early 20s. So instead of hitting Phi when I was in my mid twenty s, I was dealing with debt collectors.
So this is what I want to help our next generation avoid. I want them to get to that moment of financial comfort and wellness a lot earlier than our generation did.
Now, you mentioned growing up, you were money curious. Your kids were money curious. What would you say to parents out there where they could care less? Or it's just not registering. I mean, obviously they still have to learn things. Even a kid in school, just because they don't like school, they're still going to learn some things. So how do you balance finding that right time of when it's age appropriate or when they're ready to hear versus. Okay, well, if they're not taking to this, I have to at least hopefully put some wisdom in them, even if it's not something that they're excited about. So how do you maybe find that balance?
So I'll use an example for my life as well. So I mentioned I have two kids. My younger, my nine year old. She doesn't care. She doesn't. But we can still have conversations. We could still have discussions and she could still comprehend some of what I'm talking about, and she can understand what I'm talking about, and she could start using some of that content and start using some of that understanding and relate to what's happening financially within her life. So there's still ways of managing it. Even though they're not into it, there's still a means. The other thing is just having conversations, just including them into the conversation so they could hear and understand and be able to apply some of these financial literacy concepts. And that's the idea, right? Even if they're not really into it, if we're having those conversations and they're hearing it and they're discussing it, or even if they're not discussing it, but at least they're comprehending. They're understanding. You're having those conversations at dinner time and they're there, they're here, they're able to take in some of this. And that's the idea, right? We can't hope that they'll know and understand and be able to manage everything. That's the other part of just financial literacy education to young people in general is that it won't all take. It just won't. If you're a parent and you've tried to teach your child anything, you know that some of it takes, some of it doesn't. Lots of it takes multiple repetition, like you need to repeat yourself often, and that's okay. But if we're having the conversations around them, if we're having the conversations at dinner, even if they're not into it, like the other day, I was having this conversation, a conversation about my son was trying to figure out how to buy his first real estate property before he was 18. This is how money curious my son is. So he's twelve years old, he's trying to figure out how does he get a down payment just using allowance to buy his first property. My daughter's there walking with us and she's like, can we stop talking about money? And I was like, I hear you. She's not into it. But she said that after blocks and blocks of us talking about money. So she heard all of the conversation. She's done with it, but she heard it and she understands it. I know it's not necessarily her thing, but she's hearing it. I'm bringing her into the conversations. There's times where I can at least have her help me with things. And the other thing you could do is just try to find the thing that is their thing, right? My son likes the idea of real estate. He doesn't care as much about stocks and bonds, and that's fine. My daughter cares about toys, so I could probably find the creator of one of her dolls or one of her toys and say, hey, this is the company that makes X, Y and Z doll. This is the company that makes X, Y and Z toy. This is the company that makes X, Y and Z cartoon. Let's invest in them since it's something you're interested in. And maybe that will take, maybe not, but I'm always going to strive to find the thing that will kind of resonate with her so that she will be more interested in the conversations. The other thing, I'll stop on this afterwards is at young ages, our kids are kind of just curious about what we're doing. They just want to know and understand we are their conduit to the bigger world. So they just want to hear what did happen in your day to day, what is going on in your world, because they're trying to figure it out, right? And they're always listening. So if we can have these conversations, even with our partners in their presence, again, age appropriate way, but we can have these conversations. They're listening. They're taking it in. Whether we know it or not, they are listening. They are sponges. And eventually, I think even for the ones who are not super money curious like I was or like my son is, it will click, it will start to resonate with them. And then hopefully they start asking questions and you can have more of a back and forth. But the other thing is, again, just give them opportunities to manage their own money. And those conversations will happen organically because they will have to, right? If they want to take some of their allowance and go buy something, well, they need you to drive them. So now you're having a discussion about it. Then you can start talking about needs versus wants and inflation and all these other things. So the conversations can come. The more opportunities we give our kids as well. So there's lots there. There's lots there, yeah.
00:27:20 - Mike Swenson
And I think, too, creating an open line of communication where down the road, when they are ready for that lesson or when they do need that help, it's like, hey, dad, remember when I rolled my eyes five years ago when you're talking about that thing? Well, now I actually need to know about that thing. And so can you help me? And making them feel like they can always come talk to you about that. You're their resource. In the future, maybe you try to teach them a lesson and it didn't land, but they know they can come back to you.
It's a great point that you make, and I say this often. We want our kids to come to us regardless of what it is, whether it's sex or bullying or money or what have you. Right? But if we really want that, then we need them to know that they can. And as soon as we shut down a conversation about a subject, it phrase those lines of communication so them knowing that they can come to you. When it comes to money questions and money issues, or just money in general, it really helps to build those relationships. So I'm glad you brought that up because I think it's such an important point to bring up. This isn't just about gaining wealth and growing our wealth, it's a big part of it. It's also building relationships with our kids. We want to have strong relationships with our kids and by bringing them into our world and showing them how the big, broader world works in an open, transparent way, we really are helping to build those relationships.
Well, thank you, Clifton for coming on and sharing so much more we could chat about. But I thought we covered a lot of great things and that's the reason why you're here, to provide future resources for parents and kids. So if people want to reach out to you and learn more, get a hold of you, how can they do so?
Sure. And on that note of resources, if you're looking for a resource for kids around grade three, grade four, grade two, I have a great free resource. You can download it at kids Moneyworkbook. And again, it's like money identification and money games and money math and you can download that for free at any time. So that's kidsmoneyworkbook.com and then if you're looking for me, you can find [email protected]. I also have a bit of a presence on LinkedIn, so you can find me at cdcorbin on LinkedIn. And I'd be happy to chat and answer questions if anyone had any.
Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing. And I think there's just so many great foundational principles. So anybody listening to this episode, hopefully you took something home from it and reach out to Clifton and continue that journey. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing. I really appreciate it.
My absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.