Joel Miller - Building Real Estate Wealth & Enjoying The Journey
Joel Miller is a seasoned real estate investor who has been building wealth through rental properties since 1978 and flipping houses since 1991. With a background in accounting and a trailblazing career as a mobile DJ (with over 5,000 appearances), Joel found his true passion in real estate—eventually flipping over 100 properties and transitioning into hard money lending in 2018 to support new investors. A longtime educator and leader in the landlord community of northwestern Pennsylvania, he developed and taught courses on landlording, flipping, and lending, while also contributing to top industry publications. After years of podcast guest spots and industry encouragement, Joel authored Build Real Estate Wealth: Enjoy the Journey of Rental Property Investment, a step-by-step guide for integrating real estate into your life—without the overwhelm. If you're ready to learn from a veteran who's done it all, Joel’s insights will help you thrive in real estate investing while enjoying the journey.
In this episode, you will be able to:
- Discover how building wealth through real estate investing can create steady passive income that supports your financial freedom goals.
- Learn what it takes to start a rental property business that fits alongside your current career without overwhelming your schedule.
- Master the key tips for flipping houses successfully to maximize profits while minimizing costly mistakes.
- Uncover strategies for hard money lending that turn your available capital into a powerful tool for growing your investment portfolio.
- Apply effective tenant screening techniques that protect your rental income and keep your properties running smoothly.
The key moments in this episode are:
00:00:00 - Joel Miller’s Early Career as DJ and Real Estate Investor
00:05:54 - Transitioning from DJ to Real Estate Flipping and Lending
00:07:00 - Real Estate as a Complementary Income Stream to Your Passion
00:13:40 - Managing Scheduling and Building a Real Estate Investment Team
00:18:44 - The Importance of Hands-On Learning and Contractor Management
00:19:01 - Finding Off-Market Real Estate Deals and Diversifying Acquisition Sources
00:24:48 - Transitioning into Hard Money Lending and Expanding Investment Strategies
00:31:12 - Passive Investment Opportunities with Freedom Through Real Estate
00:32:17 - How to Access Joel Miller’s Real Estate Book and Connect Online
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Full Transcript Here:
Joel Miller
So I ended up pioneering the mobile DJ business in this part of the country. I only stuck at the radio station full time about a year after that, and I ended up doing 5,051 appearances in 35 years. And I retired from that in 2011. But shortly after I left the radio station, I did buy my first rental property in January of 78. So I'm in my 48th year as a as a landlord now.
Mike Swenson
Welcome to the Real Freedom show where we inspire you to pursue your passion to gain time and financial freedom through opportunity in real estate. I'm your host, Mike Swensonon. Let's get some real freedom together. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Real Freedom, Real Estate Leverage Freedom, where we talk about different ways that you can build time and financial freedom through opportunities in real estate. I am your host, Mike Swenson. And if you want to get started on your real estate investing journey, check out our website, freedomthroughrealestate.com or freedom through real estate.com. it's a way for you to be able to go research, listen to some of these great episodes, find a story that connects with you, find a background of somebody that connects with you, really with the goal for you to take action. We want you guys to educate yourselves. Obviously we have great guests and resource, but it's really about you taking action and putting those theories into practice and failing forward and kind of learning through your mistakes. So check out our website. Today we've got an awesome guest for you. So excited to share. We've got Joel Miller. Joel is real estate guru as well as dj, so we can maybe hear some great stories about that. But investing in rental properties since 1978 and flipping houses since 91. Got a degree in accounting and had been a DJ for a long time, flipped over a hundred properties, have since retired from being a dj and now you're really here to help investors. So you are based out of Northwestern Pennsylvania and you have a book, Build Real Estate Wealth. Enjoy the journey of rental property investment. So excited to hear from you, Joel, about all that you have to share. Welcome to the show.
Joel Miller
Well, thanks, Mike. I've been looking forward to this because I feel that what we're going to talk about today is really exactly what your listening audience is interested in. That's why they listen to your podcast. And it's so coincidental. The name of my book, Build Real Estate wealth is about your theme, you know, about building wealth through real estate. And so I'm very glad to be here. It's going to be fun and Looking forward to it.
Mike Swenson
Go ahead, get started and just kind of share a little bit about your background previous to real estate, getting into real estate. And we'll just take the conversation from there.
Joel Miller
Okay. Well, actually, you mentioned a couple of things that I'll, I'll tie together here. Two things happened to me in junior high that really set me on the path of the two main things that I've done in life, which were the DJ work and the, and the rental property stuff. First of all, a guy, an investor, built four, four unit townhouse apartment buildings at the edge of our subdivision, right on my paper. Of course, I got all those tenants as customers on my paper. You know, couldn't pass that up. But this is a little different because we lived in a, you know, me and my friends, we lived in a subdivision with our parents where they owned the houses and they were single family homes. And so this whole rental, these multi unit places at the edge of the subdivision, a little different. I have a distinct memory in about 8th grade of being in my bedroom and kind of doing the math on what this whole rental property thing looked like with people that paid money to live there, but they didn't own it. And the guy that did own it made money on what they paid. You know, just kind of a rudimentary understanding of what was going on. And I said, you know, I want to do that. And I kind of stuck that in my back pocket to do later. You know, obviously in eighth grade, I'm not going to go running out and buying rental property. The other thing was, and one of the older kids in the neighborhood built a pirate radio station in his basement. Pirate radio station is an illegal unlicensed radio station, you know, and the, the antenna was on the flagpole in this backyard and I got to hang out there. And that's when I decided I wanted to be a disc jockey. So I did radio production in high school, and then when I went away to college to study accounting, which I wanted to study because you can use that no matter what industry you end up going into. I made sure I went to college, Grove City College in Western pa, that had a really good accounting program and a really good radio program. So I ended up working at commercial radio stations during college and at the campus radio station and so on. And about halfway through college, I, I, I got invited to come back to my hometown to the big 50,000watt FM top 40 radio station to be the weekend guy, you know. So I transferred to a college that was in my town, finished in four years in accounting. And but about six weeks before I graduated from college, my part time weekend job went full time. And so for the first time I was able to take the calls from the kids at the high schools that wanted the DJs at the station to come out and do a record, hop in their gym, that sort of thing. So I went out and Mike, I made $75 in one night. I said this changed my life, you know. So I ended up pioneering the mobile DJ business in this part of the country. I only stuck at the radio station full time about a year after that. And I ended up doing 5,051 appearances in 35 years. And I retired from that in 2011. But shortly after I left the radio station I did buy my first rental property in January of 78. So I'm in my 48th year as a, as a landlord now and I did start an accounting practice, but I, I sold the accounting practice several years later because the DJ work and the rental property stuff was just blowing up, you know. And so I, I did both of those things together for number of years till like you mentioned, 91 started flipping houses. And then in 2018 I got into hard money lending where I am lending to the other investors in our area here, which brings me a lot of satisfaction to be part of the equation for investors that are a little earlier on in their, their journey. And then in Covid, I started taking notes and after about four years my book came out. Build Real Estate wealth came out last fall. Enjoy the Journey of Rental Property Investment is the subtitle. And it became a bestseller pretty quickly and it took about four years to, to write it. But all those things kind of, you know, dovetailed together and, and that's why I'm doing a lot of podcasts is, you know, promote the book. But it's, it's, it's been a, been a, been a good journey and I appreciate you having me on.
Mike Swenson
Would love to hear kind of in, in those early days owning rental property, was it mostly just because kind of going back to your roots, they're seeing like hey, you can, you can make money off of this that you saw, hey, if I can DJ do rental property at the same time, I can add an additional income stream? Was it just, hey, it's, oh my.
Joel Miller
Gosh, you actually look, you read my book. You know, it sounds like, you know, I. But yes, the premise of the book is that real estate doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. You can choose to add rental real estate onto something else that you're passionate about something you don't want to give up, like a career. Like I wanted to be an entertainer, you know, I wanted to do the mobile DJ work all that time and you know, or you, you have a hobby that takes up a lot of your time and, and you recognize that you need to add to your income some, you know, because you don't make as much as you like from whatever it is that you don't want to give up and also bolster your retirement, you know, which maybe what you're interested in is not giving you any retirement other than what you might contribute to a Roth or traditional IRA or something like that. So building wealth through investing in the rental properties is something you can add on to whatever other retirement, if any, that you have. And so the book is for people who maybe don't think that real estate is for them or it's also written for people that are established and are looking for some sort of game changing information to kind of supercharge the portfolio they already have. I don't want anybody to think that this is just a beginner's book because it's not. But does tell you how it's possible to add real estate onto something else you're doing. Or if your goal is to leave your job, I mean, you know what job is. J O B stands for just over broke, you know, for some people, if that's your goal, the tools are, are in the book.
Mike Swenson
I would love to hear a little bit about how your experiences played into that. So would love to hear kind of your experience, you know, getting started flipping, you know, and how you were able to do that on the side while working a W2 job. Because I know a lot of people in real estate, that's kind of how it starts for them. I'm working my regular job, I'm trying to do something on the side. So when you were getting started yourself, how did that work operationally? You know, in terms of with your schedule, being a dj, how are you able to kind of balance those two things?
Joel Miller
Well, I have to say I, as I mentioned, I left a full time job at the radio station in like June of 77. So by the time I bought my first rental property In January of 78, I no longer had a W2 job, but I was building a business, a real estate, a DJ business. And you got to remember that the mobile DJ business was not a thing back. I mean, you know, I was using converted band equipment and making my own light shows and all this. I mean, there was no place to go to learn how to do it. It was all, you know, make it up as you, as you go along. And so for me, the way to answer your question, the way it kind of worked is my commitments for the DJ work was primarily in the evenings and weekends, which left me during the day, during the week to mess with the properties. Now if somebody's trying to get into real estate and has that, you know, nine to five job money through Friday, then they need to take their time beyond that in the evenings and weekends. Kind of the opposite of what my schedule was to, to do their education and their, you know, maintenance and involvement, let's say that with their rental properties. And so eventually though, the book teaches you how to turn over the management, shall we say to use an all encompassing word of the properties to others if you are getting too many to be comfortable with keeping your job. You know, there's always that transition period when, when people are trying to leave their job where they have, you know, they, they have to get a certain number of properties with a certain number of income in order to, a certain amount of income in order to be able financially to leave their job. And so there can be a short period of time where you're, you got a lot going on. But you know what they say, you know, do for, I always hear it five years, what nobody else will do so that you can do for your, the rest of your life what nobody else can do. You know, and it doesn't have to. Five years is not necessarily a magic number. That's just the way I usually hear it quoted is with five years. So it's can be, you know, a scheduling issue. But I go back to what you mentioned when you were doing the intro about the, the podcast being about taking action. You know, I talk about in the book about there's more than, there's a little, there's one more step beyond taking action. You know, the first is say getting education. Second is taking action. The third is commitment or follow through. Because lots of people take action and only get so far with it. And you could, they could check the box, yeah, I took some action, I bought a property or whatever. But they don't follow through with the perhaps additional education that they may need or the actions to successfully operate the property. And they end up selling their property to some other investor who's taken action because they've taken action but they haven't committed and fallen follow through. They gave up too soon. That gets back to people having two different preconceptions about Real estate that you need to get past before you become an investor. One is that you are expecting too much. You think it's all rainbows and unicorns, you know, going into it, and you run into a few difficult bumps in the road and, and you give up because you had a bad preconception. The other preconception is at the opposite end of that, which is that real estate's all bad tenants and broken toilets. And that's kind of a myth. The reality is somewhere in between. And that's, that's, that's what we cover.
Mike Swenson
So then, you know, how are you able when you were working as a DJ and kind of traveling around, how are you able to balance the demands of, you know, working on your properties and juggling your job, which, you know, at least you had a little bit of flexibility, you know, building your own business versus a W.2, you know, kind of having to clock in and clock out depending on when your job was. But how are you able to kind of balance those two things together schedule wise and then two, Curious to hear, you know, finding other good people to help you along the way.
Joel Miller
Well, as I said, the short answer to the scheduling issue is that you're, if you're a mobile dj, your commitments are primarily in the evenings and on the weekends. And it just basically left me during.
Mike Swenson
The day working all day every day.
Joel Miller
To, to mess with days and nights. They didn't work every possible Saturday. You know, although in 1984, I did 254 appearances in a that year, including 101 appearances in 101 days over that summer. So that was, that was a busy year. But what was the second part to the question you asked about?
Mike Swenson
Oh, just talking about. Yeah, like balancing that schedule and then building out a team.
Joel Miller
One of the main points is that you need to get some education before you get started in investing. And I emphasize the word some because people get caught up a lot of times in the paralysis of analysis where they think they've got to figure it all out before they take a step. And they figure, I just need to go to this one more seminar, I need to read this one more book and hope it's my book, or I need to get to this meeting or, you know what I'm saying, and then I'm going to be rich or then I'm going to take my first step. And they, they're just constantly, you know, drawing in information and never really taking action like, you know, you, you alluded to is a necessity. And so, you know, they, they, they, they need to get some education. And part of the education that I give them in the book is talking about building your team, all the people that need to be on your team. And you know what, deciding which people you need to have. So I was a guest speaker at the Mr. Landlord convention in early June of this year and my topic was dealing with contractors. And one of the main points that I made is that first of all, you don't have to do everything if you're going to get into rental property. That's another barrier that some people have is they think they've got to be able to know how to do all these things, you know, particularly related to the operation building. So on my point is that you don't have to know how to do everything. You have to know who to call. And, and now you might choose to. You maybe, let's just say you love plumbing, okay? But you don't have to do anything else, but you love plumbing. So if anything comes up in your building is plumbing, you, you're going to do that, but you need to call somebody else for everything else, just as an example. So another point is that you need to start building your team early, like before you need them. You don't want to go looking for these people on the day that you've got an emergency at your rental property. You want to be building your team. And we talk about how to build your team, sources of coming in contact with contractors and so on that you would want to use. And the third point I make is that you want to be more than one deep on all the different categories or sell, let's just say trades. You want to know more than one plumber, more than one electrician, more than one, you know, carpet cleaning guy, whatever. So that if the situation comes up that you need one suddenly and you call your favorite person and they're not available, you know who else you can go to. So start early building your list. Build your list deep and understand that you don't have to know how to do anything or I don't want to say anything, but everything. When I started, my dad was still alive and he had a lot of skills in the carpentry area. He was never an investor, never owned a property other than that single family home that I told you that I grew up in, you know, and so I learned a lot from him and continued on. So that initially I did a lot of work on, on my own properties. But as I got bigger, I was able to pay more. And I realized that's what you have to do to scale. You can't be growing your portfolio when you're doing every little thing on the properties. So and obviously the more properties they have, the more money you have to pay other people and have it all be worthwhile for you. So I do not regret that. A lot of time in the beginning, doing a lot of stuff myself because that left me with a few things. First of all, I know what can be done. You know, like if I'm looking at problem or an opportunity, shall we say, for in a rehab or something, I can see, you know, what, what you do. So I understand what can be done. And then, and this is all about dealing with contractors and I, I, so I know what to ask somebody to do and I can tell if they're doing it right. And eventually I learned to tell whether they were charging me a fair price for it, you know, so that would be my initial time spent yielded that as something that I could utilize. Now if somebody starts out right at the beginning needing to hire other people, you for, for virtually everything might take you a little longer to know what can be done and whether they're doing it right and how long it should take, for example. So that's, that's important to learn.
Mike Swenson
Now I know everybody loves to know how to find deals. So curious to hear, you know, in your journey, how did that process kind of start and how did it evolve? Because, because obviously to flip as many properties as you do, you've got to find enough properties and find enough good deals. So walk through that process of kind of how that evolved for you.
Joel Miller
The education I gave myself until I bought the first rental property, I was reading hardcover books, guys like Bill Nicholson and Nickerson Rather and, and Al Lowry and so on. There were no late night TV half hour information gurus, real estate gurus selling their cassette tape courses with the manual that you followed through when you listen to the tape, you know. And so I, I figured from what I had educated myself to that point was that I needed to find properties that were listed on, with realtors on the multilayer. So the very first property I bought was a listed property. And I can tell you that that was actually the last property that I bought with a realtor because except for there were a number, I'd say about 20, 25% of my flips were brought to me by the realtor that I always use to sell my properties. Okay. So following my first property, all the deals that that I got were off market. And I will say, and you probably agree the best deals are the off Market deals essentially things that are sold between different investors or from you know, some other individual that doesn't really want to be a landlord but ended up being one. Like for example an executor of an estate. And I think my third property was from an executor. The second property was from another investor. The fourth property was from an auction. I bought a lot of properties at different kinds of auctions over the years. And you know, when, when I got into flipping, like I said I, I had to sell the properties because that's what a flip is, you don't belong to them. And I use the same realtor, I just listed a property with her yesterday again, you know, and, but with that relationship she also would bring me deals that were primarily bank owned properties that were being listed for sale, you know, and not so much ones that were for sale from another investor or just a regular individual selling them house. But so the book talks spends a lot of time on, on property acquisition, all the sources, how the different types of advertising, the advertising where your advertising to get the sellers to call you or where you are approaching the seller. Like for example, finding some sort of list and sending something to the seller. You know, there's two, two different angles there. One you're drawing a seller in, the other one you're going right to the seller along with other techniques and so on. But that is, that is something that's key is deal flow.
Mike Swenson
And just to highlight too, I mean you had mentioned bank owned auctions, estates, you know, all these off market opportunities. You know, nowadays information is a lot more accessible. And to your point too, you said, you know, having to learn that stuff from books and, and so what I want people to understand is you don't have to feel like you have to do it all at once, right? Like find a good source, find a good deal, go to another source, find a good deal. Like it's, it's an evolution. And so to hear you say hey, I got deals from this place, this place, this place, this place, like that's it takes a little bit of time and it takes a little bit of nuance to do that. And so it kind of starts, you know, for people sitting on the sideline, it starts with go get your first deal, right? Work through that and then go work on your second deal, right? And I think sometimes people don't take action because they think oh, I just have to educate myself a little bit more on all the sources to be able to get started. It's like no, you, you get better by doing It.
Joel Miller
Right, right, yes. And having been in this for 48 years, you can guess how, how many economic cycles I've been through. You know, so the sources of properties change sometimes with the economic cycle. So you just get, you explore different techniques. As time goes by, techniques stop working, different techniques start working. You know, and that's one of the reasons too why to why I, I am a big proponent of getting yourself involved with every, whatever your local association of other landlords is, you know, whether it's some sort of, a lot of times they call them RIAs, you know, around the country and just get with other people that are doing the same things that, that you're doing and learn from them what their techniques are and if, you know, if they got a property for sale or maybe you sell property to them, you know, it's very important and hopefully the edge the organization you get connected with is also involved in educating the members. We are very big on that in our organization which has been around since the late 70s. And I'm, I've been on the board since 2011. I've served as president for six years. I've been vice president now for eight years. Everybody keeps asking me if you're VP after I was president. And I also teach the, what we call landlord one on one class and which is a beginner class. And I teach some 201 things and some other specialized classes and so on. And everybody's in its masterminds that are spin offs of our organization that are smaller groups that meet together and share ideas. And you don't want to be just a lone wolf out there not connected to anybody else trying to figure it out loud.
Mike Swenson
Now you had mentioned, you know, getting into hard money lending in 2018. How did that come to be for you or kind of what was the decision to, to dip your toe in that water?
Joel Miller
Well, for me and the guy I went to, it's a funny story, but the, the thing is that, that I was approached by another investor who I knew pretty well because he's actually the son of my realtor. Okay. So I've known this guy since he was a grade schooler basically and he had been growing, he had become a realtor and he was starting to invest and had actually gone to seminar about using private money and he had a deal that he wanted to fund and based on his experience at the seminar, he had a script and an idea that I was the guy that could lend him some money. He said could I come over and I want to talk to you about a deal I'm getting involved in. So he brings his. His real nice folder and photos and all this, and he's got his script and we're sitting at the kitchen table. And it wasn't long until I realized what was going on. So I just left him talk. And at the end of it, I said, so, Steve, this was all about you just asking me if I'd lend you some money to do this deal? He said, yeah. I said, well, sure. And that was the beginning. I did that. And the word got around and it was not very long until that actually overtook everything else that I've done. I've had more pleasure and made more income from hard money lending in the past eight years than everything else combined, you know, and Steve Zumigil is who I'm talking about, and he wrote the bonus chapter in my book. He. He's very advanced now, has become a coach to others working under other actually in the Ron LeGrand organization. If, you know, we're on the Grand. Ron LeGrand reviewed my book and his quote was, I wish I would have had his book when I was getting started. So. But Steve, I asked Steve to write a chapter on different ways to acquire and finance property. That was beyond the scope of what I covered in that section in, in the. The part of the book I wrote, you know, so he covers 10 kind of advanced ways to purchase and finance property and, you know, make money off of it. It was a nice addition to the book.
Mike Swenson
So the book is Build Real Estate Wealth, Enjoy the Journey of Rental Property Investment. Obviously, we've gotten to talk a lot about kind of topics and stuff that you've discussed in your book with kind of your personal stories. Anything else that you want to share for. For people that might be interested in picking up the book.
Joel Miller
Well, I will tell you what, what it is about. You know, it's kind of. It's. It's a big book. And in fact, we own it. We call it the Big Book on real estate. It's 460 pages long, which is a little larger than normal for that genre, which is normally two or three hundred pages. But here's the thing, it's written with a lot of bold type words and paragraphs and sentences. So if you are saying, I couldn't read a book that long, if you do nothing but skip from bold type to bold type to bold type to bold type all the way through the book, you'll get the whole idea. And if you think you want to learn more about what you just read, just stop and read all the Words, okay, it's that, but it's also becoming the go to book for changing your life with real estate. Because it's a reference book. The reviewers are saying, look, this is not the kind of book that you just buy and read and put on your shelf and say, yes, I read it, it's over there. You buy this book, you read it and you park it on your desk because you're going to refer to it. And it's larger because it covers everything from mindset like you and I were talking about through actually entity formation and then gets into property acquisition and financing and preparing a property to either sell or, or rent it. There is a chapter in there about house flipping, including a QR code that will take you to bonus material on house flipping for the how to part of house flipping. The chapter in the book is more like about house flipping, but it talks a lot about finding tenants and tenant screening and acquisition is key. If you don't get that down you, no matter what else you know how to do, like find property, fix property, whatever, you will not have a good time in this business because the tenants are where the money comes from. And you got to get that right, you know, so that we spent a lot of time on that. Talk about the tax implications of this sort of business and preparing financial statements for the bank. Mike, I'm sure, you know, if you don't give a good personal financial statement that includes your business information to people like bankers, you know that they're making mortgages, you're going to get stalled because this business runs on opm, other people's money, you know, it might be private money, might be institutional money, whatever, you know, but you have to know how to present that. And that comes from my accounting background. I put in all the techniques that are going to be very useful that if you didn't know about, you might, you might be rejected for things that, and you don't even realize why, you know, because you didn't present something right. And then there's some philosophy, philosophical stuff like discussion of the difference between riches and wealth. Two different things, you know, and some other philosophical things, best practices for your life and for your business. So it's really an all encompassing book. And nobody that's experienced should think that they won't get something out of it. But contains over 150 checklists, bullet pointed checklists for stuff like questions to ask people to call about apartments, questions to ask the references, due diligence questions or topics. There's even a list in there, the tools you might want to use if you're getting started. So this is, you know, my goal is if you got a copy of Rich Dad Poor dad, this is the perfect complimentary book. Awesome.
Mike Swenson
Yeah, I know there's a ton of people I always joke about how I should have a check mark on my wall for everybody that mentions Rich Dad Poor dad that I interview on the podcast.
Joel Miller
So you can add another check mark there. The books are, they're not the same, they're complementary.
Mike Swenson
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Joel Miller
Website that is specifically for the book. Very simple. Joel Millerbooks.com j o e L M I L L E R B o o k s.com and you can easily find me on Facebook, Instagram X and LinkedIn. The buy button on the website will take you right to the page on Amazon where it's for sale. It's on sale like about 15 different platforms or so. It's easy to find. Put in Joel Miller Real Estate I hear that if you just put in Joel Miller you end up getting a lot of information about a popular video game character that has nothing to do with me. So you know, put in real estate when you search. But it's, it's available as a paperback and ebook.
Mike Swenson
Well, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your time and talking about your book. And best of luck to you as you continue to plug the book and lend out money and, you know, have more success real estate.
Joel Miller
Thank you very much, my dear. Pleasure.
